Episode Overview
Episode Topic
In this episode of “Holistic Health Habits,” host Surani Fernando dives into the crucial topic of sleep and its profound impact on overall wellness. Departing from the usual focus on nutrition, this discussion centers around the science of sleep, exploring how it influences mental health, particularly conditions like insomnia and depression. Special guest Dr. Damon Ashworth, a renowned clinical psychologist and author of “Deliberately Better Sleep,” brings his expertise to the conversation, sharing valuable insights on the relationship between sleep, cognitive behavioral therapy, and holistic health. Tune in to discover practical strategies and emerging trends in sleep therapy that could transform your approach to achieving better sleep and, consequently, a healthier life.
Lessons You’ll Learn
Listeners will gain a deeper understanding of how sleep quality directly affects mental and physical health. Dr. Ashworth discusses the prevalence of insomnia and depression, and the effectiveness of Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) in treating these conditions. Learn about self-management techniques, such as sleep regularity and optimizing sleep environments, and discover why certain lifestyle choices, like consistent sleep routines and mindful screen usage, are essential. This episode also covers the potential benefits and drawbacks of using technology like sleep trackers and wearables in managing sleep health. By the end of this episode, you will be equipped with actionable strategies to enhance your sleep quality and overall well-being.
About Our Guest
Dr. Damon Ashworth is a leading clinical psychologist specializing in sleep and mental health. With a doctorate in clinical psychology from Monash University, Dr. Ashworth has extensive experience in treating insomnia and depression. His research, conducted through a clinical trial, explored the link between sleep improvement and reduced depressive symptoms in patients who had not responded to antidepressants. As an author of “Deliberately Better Sleep,” Dr. Ashworth combines his research findings with practical advice to help individuals understand and optimize their sleep habits. His work at the Melbourne Sleep Disorder Center and his experience as a mental health specialist in Vanuatu have shaped his holistic approach to treating sleep disorders.
Topics Covered
This episode covers a range of topics centered around sleep health and its impact on mental wellness. Key discussions include the definition and prevalence of insomnia and depression, the evolution and effectiveness of Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) for insomnia, and the importance of self-management in sleep therapy. Dr. Ashworth shares his insights on the use of sleep trackers, the benefits of maintaining a regular sleep schedule, and how lifestyle factors such as diet and screen time affect sleep quality. Additionally, the episode delves into emerging trends in sleep technology, including AI’s potential role in sleep therapy and personalized treatment approaches for better sleep health.
Our Guest: Dr. Damon Ashworth
Dr. Damon Ashworth is a distinguished clinical psychologist specializing in sleep and mental health. With a doctorate in clinical psychology from Monash University, he has dedicated his career to understanding and treating insomnia and depression. His clinical research, particularly a pivotal trial during his doctoral studies, focused on patients suffering from both insomnia and depression who had not found relief through antidepressants alone. This groundbreaking research demonstrated that targeted sleep interventions could significantly improve not only sleep quality but also alleviate depressive symptoms, reshaping the approach to treating these common yet debilitating conditions. Dr. Ashworth’s expertise is further solidified by his extensive experience at the Melbourne Sleep Disorder Center, where he developed innovative therapeutic approaches to enhance sleep health.
Beyond his clinical practice, Dr. Ashworth is an influential author, having penned “Deliberately Better Sleep,” a comprehensive guide that merges his research findings with actionable strategies for improving sleep. The book is designed to empower individuals to understand their unique sleep patterns and implement evidence-based techniques to enhance their sleep quality. His work emphasizes a personalized approach, recognizing that effective sleep solutions must be tailored to each individual’s needs. Dr. Ashworth also incorporates Cognitive Behavioral Therapy for Insomnia (CBT-I), Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT), and Positive Psychology into his practice, providing a well-rounded, holistic approach to mental health and sleep improvement.
Dr. Ashworth’s contributions extend beyond his clinical and writing endeavors. He has served as a mental health specialist in Vanuatu, where he worked to establish foundational mental health services and provided training to local healthcare professionals. This international experience has given him a unique perspective on global mental health issues, highlighting the importance of community support and culturally sensitive approaches in treatment. Dr. Ashworth continues to be a thought leader in sleep psychology, frequently speaking at conferences, contributing to academic journals, and providing resources through his website and social media platforms. His commitment to advancing the field and his ability to translate complex scientific concepts into practical advice make him a valuable resource for anyone looking to improve their sleep and overall mental health.
TRANSCRIPT
Surani Fernando: Welcome to another episode of Holistic Health Habits, the podcast where we explore innovative approaches to holistic health and wellness. I’m your host,Surani Fernando, and today we’re deviating a little from our traditional nutrition related conversations and talking about something that has often been discussed by experts as equally important when it comes to nourishing the body. Sleep. Today we have with us Doctor Damon Ashworth, a renowned clinical psychologist and author of Deliberately Better Sleep with a doctorate in clinical psychology from Monash University and extensive experience in treating insomnia and depression. Doctor Ashworth is here to share his insights on sleep and mental health, and we’re looking forward to the conversation. Welcome to the show Doctor Ashworth.
Dr Damon Ashworth: Thank you very much. Glad to be here.
Surani Fernando: Great. So before we start, can you just tell us a little bit about your background as a psychologist? You know, your training and what drove you to focus on the phenomenon of sleep when it comes to improving health outcomes?
Dr Damon Ashworth: Yeah, definitely. I studied my clinical psychology doctorate at Monash and my research was enslaved. So I did a clinical trial where we treated people for sessions across eight weeks and people that had insomnia and depression, and they’d taken antidepressants, but they hadn’t gotten better. And so we thought if we target the sleep and try to improve that, then it could make a positive difference, not just on their sleep and insomnia, but also their depression. So that really got me into it. And then I started working at the Melbourne Sleep Disorder Center after that.
Surani Fernando: Okay, great. And just talking a little bit about insomnia and depression. Can you just give us a background on what exactly the problem is? You know what the problem is You know how widespread it is. You know, possibly quite undiagnosed, especially on the insomnia front. Well, I guess both. Yeah.
Dr Damon Ashworth: Yeah, definitely. So I’d say depression, it’s one of the most leading causes of disability worldwide. So it does impact a lot of people. Uh, I’d say numbers vary between maybe 6% for depression that people will suffer, but in their lifetime it can be as high as 30%. Now, in terms of insomnia, it is about people that really struggle to fall asleep or stay asleep during the night, and then they feel not as refreshed as they want to be during the day. And that can impact again about a third of people on any given night. And for the severe range where people have that diagnosis and they really need to seek help, it’s probably about 10 to 15%.
Surani Fernando: Okay. And what’s the current way of treating that like the traditional way you mentioned antidepressants. Obviously there’s going to be interventional drugs, but what are the different options that are Popular.
Dr Damon Ashworth: Yeah. In terms of seeing a psychologist, obviously people with depression do get a referral through a mental health care plan in Australia. So they’ll come and see us. And often the research shows a combination of taking medication. So antidepressants as well as therapy is more effective than just taking one by itself. And then in terms of insomnia, it used to be that people would get sleeping pills a lot from their GP, but now people are starting to realize more and more the importance of talking to someone who’s a sleep specialist and getting some tailored interventions for them.
Surani Fernando: Okay. And so you’ve conducted a lot of research on cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia. Can you share how CBT has evolved over the years and its impact in treating insomnia and depression? And, you know, some of the, you know, most significant findings that you’ve found in your research?
Dr Damon Ashworth: Yeah, definitely. I’d say back to the 1960s or 70s, they were looking at some individual interventions for insomnia. So little things that people could try or tips or tricks And what they realized is some of those work really well for some people, and then not at all for other people. So CBT really combines a lot of these interventions that have a lot of evidence behind them as being helpful. And by putting them all together, hopefully you can throw as wide a net as possible and make the biggest impact for as many people as possible. Yeah. So the one that I went to was a four session intervention, and it looks at educating people around sleep, looking at their behaviors and making sure that they’re doing things that are going to be helpful, looking at their beliefs around sleep and trying to challenge that. And then finally, it’s about self-management. What can they do to keep those improvements going over time?
Surani Fernando: Okay. And what’s your opinion on, you know, with that self-management, like the different sort of tools that are out there that people might be using to track their sleep or, you know, people have the aura ring and things like that. Is that something that you recommend or, you know, do you promote that or is that sort of counteracting some of the work that you would do with your patients?
Dr Damon Ashworth: I think it definitely has its purpose. I have both a Fitbit and an okay.
Surani Fernando: Okay, that’s good to know.
Dr Damon Ashworth: I track my sleep a lot, and I think it can give us some really valuable information with certain people. It can lead to a fair bit of health anxiety. Okay, if that’s the case, then it’s probably recommended to not look too much at that. But sometimes there can be sleep state misperception as well. Whereas people might think they’re only sleeping 2 or 3 hours a night. And then you use a sleep tracker and it shows that they’re getting six hours. And so that can be helpful at reducing. That leads to more anxiety. I’d say stay away from it, but if it’s helpful, then seek it out and try to keep using it.
Surani Fernando: Okay. And you know, you have your book Deliberately Better Sleep, which combines your research and clinical experience. What inspired you to write this book and how does that integrate with your clinical practices? Yeah.
Dr Damon Ashworth: I think in the sleep field, there’s a lot of people talking about what people should do, and I’m not sure if everyone fully understands the why behind it, and so deliberately better sleep is really teaching people the method to figure out what’s going to work for them, to then be able to apply that and test that out, and then to see if they can keep kind of putting that into their self. So again, I was saying that some interventions will work for some people and not for others. I think it’s really important to figure out for people what works for them.
Surani Fernando: And then okay, and this and this book is for just the general population. It’s not, for, you know, professional like helping professionals with their patients.
Dr Damon Ashworth: No, definitely. I think professionals could read it from it, but it’s really just walking an individual through what’s going on with their sleep, helping them to understand it, and then looking at what are the things that have the most evidence behind them that they could try, put it into practice and then be able to see how it’s going and then keep.
Surani Fernando: And what are some common things that people do in their everyday lives that are directly connected with, you know, poor sleep that, that you would say, you know, has been the biggest breakthrough with your findings. And what’s in your book? Yeah.
Dr Damon Ashworth: What’s interesting is I think a lot of people do what’s called social jet lag in that on weekends they’ll sleep a lot later in terms of going to bed later and also waking up a lot later than what they do during the week. And then let’s say they sleep until 11am on Sunday, and then they try to go to bed at 10pm on Sunday night. They’re not going to be able to sleep. So I think regularity is one of those things that I’ve really noticed that if people don’t have that, it’s going to start to have a negative impact on people’s sleep.
Surani Fernando: Okay. So just like having that routine, what does that mean for people who have to work things like shifts and, and have to have like a different sort of routine?
Dr Damon Ashworth: Yeah, shift work is very hard for that reason. So I think it was Matthew Walker. He talked about four things that are important for sleep. The first one is about quantity and that most people would want to get somewhere between 6 to 8 hours of sleep, if possible. The next is about quality. So are there certain things that you’re doing that are reducing that quality, that are stressing you out, and can we lower that? The next one is about regularity. So again, the less consistency we have from night to night and across the week, the better our sleep is going to be over time. And the last one is about timing. So let’s say someone’s an early bird. They’re probably going to sleep best between maybe 9 p.m. and 5 a.m. and so for them, sleeping outside of that time won’t be good. And if they’re a night owl, then they might sleep best between 1 a.m. and 9 a.m.. And if they go to bed too early, right.
Surani Fernando: Okay. So it really depends on who the person is and how the individual rhythm is. Because I get a little bit conflicted with this. I think I’m definitely a night owl. And I find myself, you know, it’s difficult to go to sleep when I’m supposed to, but then I have no problem sleeping in the daytime, like taking a nap or something like that, especially on weekends. You know, I yeah, it’s completely fine for me to have, you know, what I feel is stimulation from the outside and there’s light and everything and it’s fine. But, you know, people do also say that we should be, you know, our rhythm should be according to the sun, you know, with, you know, when you should be getting ready for bed, when you should stop eating. Everything happens around the sun. What is your opinion about that? With just the sun being the constant and then with other other people that might have different internal rhythms?
Dr Damon Ashworth: Yeah, well, our internal rhythms, they have an impact on our circadian rhythms. And circadian is Latin for about a day. So each person does have about a 24 hour cycle. But some people will have an advanced cycle going to be better for them to eat, to go to bed earlier, to wake up earlier. And some people have more delayed ones where they will want to eat a bit later, go to bed later, get up later. And so I really think it’s about figuring out what that style is for each person. There are some good questionnaires out there. One’s called a morningness Eveningness questionnaire. And that can really help people determine a little bit what their body clock might be. And then if we can sleep at that ideal body time, regardless of what’s the sun. The sun is doing.
Surani Fernando: So what was that question? And where can people find that if they want to dig into that?
Dr Damon Ashworth: Yeah, it’s called the Morningness Eveningness questionnaire. So you could just type it into.
Surani Fernando: And one other thing that I was thinking about is something that I’ve definitely noticed when I have done it, but it’s very difficult for me to, you know, stop screen time for a few hours before bed. It’s. Yeah, the times that I have done that, it’s just because, you know, there’s been a reason to not look at my phone before. But, you know, usually every day there’s some reason to look at my phone, check, check a message or check or finish up things before I go to bed. Is that something that’s been proven with poor sleep? You know, disrupted sleep?
Dr Damon Ashworth: Absolutely. Yeah. I do think people are just using their smartphones so much more over the last few years. And I think that has coincided with sleep problems getting worse with people sleeping later, waking up more during the night, feeling more refreshed and refreshed the next day. Yeah. So if we can have a bit of a break before sleep, it’s going to be really useful. But I think there are other reasons why the smartphone can be problematic, and that’s because it triggers a little bit of dopamine in our brain every time we get a notification. Our brain then is. So there’s other reasons why we want to stay off the phone apart from just okay.
Surani Fernando: And how does that compare with reading then. And like reading a book versus with and also reading on a, on a Kindle or something like that? Yeah.
Dr Damon Ashworth: Kindle isn’t too bad. I’d say reading is okay, but reading a physical book is probably for some people that can be harder for them to sleep, but for most people, I’d say it would help them to wind down and relax before bed. And then once they’re feeling sleepy, they can put the book down and it’s easier to get. Okay.
Surani Fernando: And, you know, you’ve worked with various psychological Logical frameworks including CBT, Act and Positive Psychology. Can you talk a little bit about each of those? you know, expand on them. And how do you determine which approach to use with a client? And maybe if you can share sort of a success story where, you know, you’ve integrated these different frameworks and it’s led to a significant improvement?
Dr Damon Ashworth: Yeah, definitely. If we were to briefly look at CBT just stands for cognitive therapy. So it’s looking at all of our beliefs about things and all of our behaviors. So it can be quite broad. But at its basic level I think it’s looking at what we can change. Whereas acceptance and commitment therapy is much more starting with the focus of what are things that you’ve always been trying to change for whatever reason, you can’t. And would it be better if we start with accepting and saying, okay, now let’s look at what’s most important to me and try to put some goals in line with that. And then positive psychology is much less looking at the negative aspects of life and looking more at our strengths and how we can put them into practice. So I do think it’s useful to apply each of those? So I use the Via Character Strengths survey with people, and it helps clarify what their key strengths are. And then they can apply that in their life. And then you’re still using CBT principles to say, what are some things that we can do to change these things? Or what are some beliefs that hold you back? We’re still looking at acting in terms of values and what’s most important and what goals we can set.
Surani Fernando: Okay. And do you have a success story that you can share?
Dr Damon Ashworth: I probably couldn’t say too much about it due to confidentiality.
Surani Fernando: Reasons without naming anyone. Well, yeah, I mean, anything general like, you know, or maybe trends or something like that that you’ve seen.
Dr Damon Ashworth: Yeah, definitely. I know at the Melbourne Sleep Disorder Center, I was there for about six years, and I saw lots of people that came in with insomnia and sleep problems that they’d had for ten, 20 sleeping pills all the time. And by the end of a four session program over eight weeks, they were able to get to a point where they were feeling so much more confident with what they were doing, but still having times where they were waking up, but they weren’t as distressed and they were just feeling a lot.
Surani Fernando: Okay. Okay. And, you know, you mentioned sleeping pills. Obviously there are prescription pills that people are taking, but there’s a lot of other things, supplements and things like that that are, you know, are supposed to help you with your sleep. Not sure you know what the evidence is. What’s your opinion on some of those things? I mean, obviously the melatonin is the big one. And then there are some other things out there. Do you want to talk a little bit about what you’re seeing being used? Even if you don’t, you know, agree with them being used?
Dr Damon Ashworth: Yeah, definitely. In terms of benzodiazepines such as Valium or temazepam, they’re not recommended for more than, say, 2 to 4 weeks at a time. So if people are taking those, it may be good as a stopgap or a short term solution. But I think things like melatonin can be better to use on a more regular basis, because that can help set our body clock. It can help bring it forward. It can help us to get more regular sleep. So I do think melatonin has its purpose, especially if people have a delayed body clock. Uh, in terms of magnesia I’ve heard that can be really good. If people have muscles that move around a lot, they’re feeling a bit restless. That can help to settle, settle the legs down a bit. I think if people have enough magnesium in their system, it might not do heaps, but for people where they’ve got a bit of a deficit, it can make a big difference. Okay. Outside of that, people take valerian and chamomile tea and things, and if it helps them to sleep better, then it’s really good. But I don’t think it’s going to be the magic bullet for everybody.
Surani Fernando: Okay. You did mention magnesium. Is there a I know that there are a couple of types of magnesium that, you know, do different things. 1st May be for sleep, one more like a laxative. Is there a particular type that is for sleep?
Dr Damon Ashworth: There might be. I would probably speak to. Okay. Yeah.
Surani Fernando: Yeah. Okay. well, we didn’t talk about emerging trends, but we did talk a little bit about technology. Like the aura ring and things like sleep trackers. But what are you seeing in terms of emerging technologies that you’re using? You know, as a practitioner in your space and how that’s impacted the treatment of insomnia and depression? And what do you see emerging in possibly the next decade? As a practitioner, what you might use, you know, in your practice, but also for individuals to use.
Dr Damon Ashworth: Yeah, I’ll be really interested to see how AI is integrated. I was talking to a psychologist and they were saying that you could have an AI software that listens in on sessions with people, and based on that, it can then tell you what type of personality structure the person has and what interventions are likely to be most helpful for them. So I think AI is, as long as there’s consent, could have some really positive impacts in pushing in helping the clinician to go, okay, in terms of technology at home, there’s a few different things where they try to cool down the temperature of the mattress and things like that, and that’s actually showing some really promising findings. So if we can change temperature, if we can change the environment, these things can make a big difference over time. So I’m excited to see what’s okay.
Surani Fernando: And you know, I didn’t really think you know I just thought about this. Now what you wear to bed important. You know the materials obviously people say it’s better to sleep with nothing on like, you know, you can help your body breathe. I don’t know if that affects your sleep quality. It is. Have you done any research on that anecdotal research?
Dr Damon Ashworth: I haven’t done any research on it, but it does make sense. I know with temperature 16 to 21°C it is ideal. So if people are too cold wearing some things that can help warm up the body a little bit would be nice. I’d say comfort is important. So for some people, sleeping naked might help them to feel really comfortable. I’m not sure if I think on some level it would make me feel a bit more anxious and so that wouldn’t be good for my sleep. So whatever people feel comfortable in, whatever they feel the right temperature in is probably going to be okay.
Surani Fernando: And you recently completed volunteering as a mental health specialist in Vanuatu, which sounds really interesting. How did that experience shape your perspective on global mental health issues, and what lessons did you bring back to your practice in Australia? Are you based in Australia or are you based somewhere? I think they still southbank’s. Okay. Okay. Melbourne. Okay. Okay. Yeah. What did you learn from that?
Dr Damon Ashworth: Well, I went over in 2018, so I did nearly three years altogether. And in Melbourne or in Australia there’s over 30,000 psychologists, whereas in Vanuatu there was no other psychologists. So I was working with a really small team. I think we had four mental health nurses, one psychiatrist, and we were trying to get across the 83 islands and help out people and train up nurses, so it was an amazing experience. I didn’t see any depression. And so I think potentially there’s more work that needs to be done in building awareness. But it also might be that there’s some real benefits in the community atmosphere that they have there, and how much people are connected to each other and supporting each other. So I’d love to see more work on our social networks in Australia and the benefits that that can have to our mental health.
Surani Fernando: Yeah, and it’s interesting just going into different societies. I’m actually also from Australia, I’m from Sydney, but I live in Madrid and it’s just the difference in culture of, you know, the timings of how people do things. You know, when they have lunch, when they have dinner, when they go to bed. Even children and their sleep patterns are very different to what we would, you know, experience growing up in Australia. And I’m always curious about that, like from a sleep expert, you know, how do you decide what’s right and wrong and like what other elements impact how you would assess a child’s or even a person’s overall sleep? and I’ll give you an example. So, you know, my I have nieces that are, that are in Australia and their bedtime, you know, they’re, nine and 11 and their bedtime is, you know, something like seven 3830 around around that time. But that’s like here with the same age group. The kids would have dinner at 930, and then they would go to bed a lot later. And then people always ask me, but like, how do they get enough sleep as a, as a child? And, you know, when do they wake up and they still go to school around the same time. So I’m curious to know what your thoughts are on that with different cultural practices and affecting sleep?
Dr Damon Ashworth: Yeah, I definitely think it would. I know in Vanuatu a lot of the children went to school at about 7:15, and I do think that would be too early. I think that would be eating into how much sleep people are getting, and that could have some negative impacts on their mental and physical health. So we know that children need more sleep than adults. And so if we can get school times to start a bit later, then they’ll be able to get the sleep opportunity, especially if they’re staying up. What’s interesting is with any recommendation, it needs to fit in with the person and with their family and with their culture. So yeah, somebody is eating dinner at 915 and you’re telling them to go to bed at nine. Obviously it’s not going to work, so it needs to be what’s going to.
Surani Fernando: Yeah. And I think that just like my observations, it’s there’s a lot of practices that in other societies people might say, you know, but that’s not healthy. It’s not healthy to eat so late and it’s not healthy to go to bed at this time and whatever. But then when you look at general mental health rates or general, you know, life expectancy and things like that, you are seeing healthy. You are seeing health, you know, as a result of doing certain things that might not be healthy. And and I think, you know, as a mental health expert, that’s really a big part of it, which is like taking care of, you know, your social circles and really, you know, nourishing that part of your life will help you in other, other aspects. But yeah, I guess it’s pretty difficult to pinpoint, you know, what is the best way?
Dr Damon Ashworth: Yeah. I don’t think there is a best way. I think it really does need to be for that person. What’s going to work for them? What’s going to fit in with their family? With everything. I was even talking to a client the other day, and we were talking about what an ideal bedtime for them might be, but then they live with their partner, and their partner goes to bed an hour earlier. And so for them, they might actually want to push their body clock forward and to go to bed at the same time as their partner, even though it might be ideal for them to sleep an hour later from purely a sleep perspective.
Surani Fernando: So basically, it really has to be. And that’s where someone like you would, would come in when you have a patient that’s really suffering. You look at every aspect of their life and try and, you know, mold it in a way that is going to fit in with whatever their lifestyle is and whatever their family life is. Yeah.
Dr Damon Ashworth: And it would be similar with food as well. You know, there might be a certain diet that works really well for one person, and then it’s just going to be the worst recommendation for another person as well. So we need to say, all right. These are the options I think could be good. But out of those, what do you think is going to work best for your lifestyle? What do you think you’re going to stick at and what’s going to make the biggest difference over time?
Surani Fernando: Yeah, definitely. And what would you say are some really negative things that are emerging? You know, we talked about technology and we talked about, you know, possible AI coming in as we go into this new phase of technology. What do you think we have to really be be careful of and cognizant of to, you know, protect ourselves.
Dr Damon Ashworth: I do have concerns about the definitely smart just in terms of the I’d say for a lot of people these days, they’re using it 4 or 5 hours a day, and that can’t. It’s going to eat social connections with other people. It will eat into exercise and sleep and things like that. And so I think we need to start looking at how we’re using these things and how we’d like. And then coming up with different tips and tricks to make it easier to do the things that we want to. So there will be times where I will put my phone as soon as I get home in the kitchen, attached to the power, and then I can’t just pull it out of my pocket. But if it’s right there, I’m probably going to look at it more than I want to. So there are a few things where we need to start doing things to make it harder to do. Those things that feel easy, but are not going to be good for us in the long run.
Surani Fernando: And I’m sort of curious as to how your practice and how your research impacts your life. And what sort of things do you adopt that you know, as your research progresses and you adopt certain practices into your own lifestyle? Like what does a day? What does the day look like for you when it comes to those things?
Dr Damon Ashworth: Yeah, I mean, I work mostly in private practice these days, so I don’t do too much sleep research outside of individual experiments and helping other people. Yeah. In terms of how it works for me, I use activity trackers. So I do look at my sleep and my readiness scores and my stress levels, and I do what I can to adapt and to manage. You know, I do recommend for most people to go and talk to someone if they can, you know, if it’s a psychologist, if you can afford that, that’s going to be so. There’s lots of different things we can do. And I’ve integrated. So probably journaling, meditation and definitely going and talking to someone. Okay.
Surani Fernando: And you know we have a lot of listeners that would be maybe health professionals, holistic health professionals, you know, focused on things like more lifestyle, nutrition, physical activity. Also sleep comes into that. So but for those new to, you know, cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia, what foundational knowledge or skills should they focus on to effectively help their clients when it comes to the broader holistic health approach? Yeah.
Dr Damon Ashworth: So in terms of cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia, I’d say the two interventions that have the biggest benefits can be stimulus control or sleep restriction. So stimulus control only uses sleep and sex and going to bed when you feel sleepy. If you can’t fall asleep within about 15 to 20 minutes, you’re meant to get up, go to another room, wait till you feel sleepy again, and go back, and then to get up at the same time seven days a week. So that’s got a lot of evidence behind it. The other one is sleep restriction. And that’s saying how much time would the person like to be sleeping each day. And let’s say they’d like to be getting seven hours. Then the key is to actually reduce the amount of time that you’re in bed for just a little bit more than that. So if someone’s not sleeping well, they might try to be in bed for ten hours at night. But that’s just meaning that in themselves. So what happens if they cut that down to 7.5 hours in bed? They might not sleep any less, but they might spend a lot less time in bed, awake, and then they’re less frustrated. So I’d start with those two if they want to start. Okay.
Surani Fernando: And is that the range of 7 to 9 hours is the sweet spot of sleep?
Dr Damon Ashworth: That would be what most people would recommend. I do think there are some short sleepers out there where they can get by in a bit less. So it is about finding out what’s the right amount for each person to feel refreshed and to function well. But I’d say the average person probably would be best if they’re sleeping somewhere between 7 to 8 hours.
Surani Fernando: Okay. And what happens if you oversleep? Like if you get too much sleep? Are there any connections with, you know, any particular negative impacts?
Dr Damon Ashworth: I think so. I’m not sure if it’s a correlation or a causation. If you look at a lot of the longitudinal studies where they’ll track people for 6 or 7 years, people that are sleeping 9 or 10 hours a night on average, actually have worse health outcomes than people that are only sleeping seven. So I do think there is such a thing as too much sleep. Maybe it’s already that they’re sick and that’s why they need more. But I don’t think it’s about to get as much. But getting the right amount for you.
Surani Fernando: Getting the right amount, and another one that I’ve always been curious about is that if you have, you know, if you’re that person that needs aid, I would say that I need eight hours of sleep. I can function on seven. Anything less than. Yeah. I’m not, I don’t function. but sometimes I wonder if it’s the average, you know, daily sleep that you need. And if some days, you know, you’re getting, like, less, you know, seven, seven, seven. And then on the weekend you sleep ten. Is that you? You mentioned routine is important. So does that like, throw everything out. It can equilibrium out.
Dr Damon Ashworth: Yeah. Especially if people are sleeping too late. It is going to make it harder going forward. Yeah I would say it’s best to not try to catch up on lost sleep too much, but to get back to good. Yeah.
Surani Fernando: So even on the weekends, sleep ins are not recommended.
Dr Damon Ashworth: I would say that. And that probably doesn’t make I do think it’s best, you know, if you do sleep in, sleep in max an hour late, it’s no more. Probably shouldn’t be too much of a problem, but I definitely wouldn’t be trying to spend 3 or 4 hours more.
Surani Fernando: But okay. And then things like what you’re eating impacting sleep. You know what you should avoid before you go to sleep. Or maybe I’m not sure if you would pay in this context. You would pay attention to the things that you should do when you wake up. but are there other things that you have found to be helpful in that in that sense, before sleep?
Dr Damon Ashworth: Helpful? Yes. In terms of harm. Probably the two things I’ve noticed that have the biggest negative impact is if we too heavy a meal too close to bedtime, that’s not great. Right. And if we drink alcohol before bed. So I’m not sure if people understand how negative an impact it can have.
Surani Fernando: Right. And is that drinking alcohol, you know, a couple of hours before bedtime or just just drinking it at all. It negatively impacts your sleep.
Dr Damon Ashworth: Yeah, it will impact it. So if you have one drink, say four hours before bed, it probably won’t impact it too much. But if you’re having 3 or 4 drinks, expect that you probably will have a bit of a worse sleep in terms of quality and quantity.
Surani Fernando: I mean, I think everyone who drinks would have an experience of that. I think experience of having bad sleep or even, you know, trying to fall asleep. What about caffeine? Because that’s something that is a bit debated. You know, people will just be like, I’m not drinking any coffee. I won’t be able to sleep if I have a coffee after 3 p.m., but then you have other cultures that are having a little espresso after dinner. And so I’ve never understood the caffeine thing with that. And it. Personally, I am fine to have a coffee after dinner, but sometimes I do that and then have a horrible sleep so I can’t go to bed. So yeah.
Dr Damon Ashworth: Yeah, we know that caffeine. If we’re already feeling a little bit stressed about things, it’s probably best to not be having caffeine and not having it too late. So generally I’ll say you’re going to have it’s not a problem, but I’d probably try to stop by 2:00 pm if you can. That’ll give you enough time to get back to a baseline. But if people are having it right before bed, unless they’re really sensitive to it, I would never recommend it. Some people will sleep okay, but if you look at their sleep architecture, it will show that. Okay.
Surani Fernando: All right. Great. Really great tips. And finally, just, you know, as we have these health professionals listening, what advice would you give them to, to for them to ensure that they stay updated with the latest research and advancements in the area of sleep? You know, also when it comes to advancing holistic health for their clients.
Dr Damon Ashworth: That’s an interesting thought. I obviously go to conferences and things like that. So if you can, to go to conferences where they do talk about sleep, it might be hard for people to do that. So I do try to keep up to date with the journal articles and the latest books. On my website I will post a few things. So there are different ways to keep up, but I’d probably say the best thing to do is to get in touch with a sleep physician if you wanted to, and ask them a question and say what’s going on there? And then they might be able to point you in the right.
Surani Fernando: And, you know, you obviously have free resources on your website. Are you available like are you on social media or anything like that? Do people follow you?
Dr Damon Ashworth: Yeah, I do have Twitter and LinkedIn. I’ve stopped using Facebook and Instagram again because I’m worried about how much time that can take up.
Surani Fernando: Yeah. Okay. So they can follow you there. And are there any, you know, influencers, sleep influencers or, you know, experts out there that you recommend? also for people to tap into that can share some good insights on this.
Dr Damon Ashworth: Yeah. Doctor Matthew Walker is doing a lot in raising awareness of sleep issues. I think sometimes he can make people a bit anxious as well. so if it does lead to you feeling anxious, maybe I wouldn’t recommend him too much, but he did a six part series with Andrew Huberman which went into heaps, so that’ll give you more detail than most people ever need.
Surani Fernando: Right, right. Definitely. Definitely a fan of Andrew Huberman. So I’ll check that and check that out as well. Yeah. Okay, great Well, do you have anything else to add? Are there any last words before we close off? Anything I missed?
Dr Damon Ashworth: I guess I would just say that if people want to get a copy of my book, it is out there. So if you go to Amazon, you’ll be able to get a copy of Deliberately Better Sleep, and hopefully it will teach you all the skills that you need to be able to become a good lifelong sleeper.
Surani Fernando: Well, thank you so much, Doctor Ashworth, for sharing your valuable insights with us today. You know, your work in the field of sleep and mental health is truly interesting and inspiring, and I encourage listeners who want to learn more to to check out Doctor Ashworth’s book, Deliberately Better Sleep, and visit his website at Damon Ashworth psychology.com. Thanks to everyone for tuning in to this episode for holistic health Habits. If you like this episode, don’t forget to subscribe, rate and review our podcasts so that it can reach more people. Stay tuned for more insights into holistic health and wellness. And until next time, I’m Sereni Fernando. Take care and stay healthy.